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2013.11.30 - Large Sutra on Perfect Wisdom, Part 2, Edward Conze

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2013.11.30 - Large Sutra on Perfect Wisdom, Part 2, Edward Conze

Garuda, Dorje, GR, MV

In this discussion, we share how what Rama taught us is expressed in this book.  We also discuss emptiness, nirvana and some tools on how to deal with others when you challenged by their behavior, recognizing their limitations.  

What is the difference between an enlightened being and a bodhisattva?  A boddhisatva has vowed to not enter nirvana until all beings have awakened, but that does not mean that they can course in the knowledge of all modes as a tathagata (such as Rama) does.  To course in the knowledge of all modes means that they can not only traverse all the dimensions, but they have an understanding of how things actually work in all of those dimensions.

If nothing exists and all dharmas are illusionary – how can we do all this work?  Even if we perceive everything as if in a dream and karmas unfolding, we’re still in a body and in this dimension.  We practice the six perfections and watch the dream, and we remain conscious that we are in a dream.  We have to get off the wheel in order to no longer experience it.  We have to modify our karma.  As John Lennon said, “we’re just sitting here doing time.” 

One of the challenges is that we have to nip our thoughts in the bud before they create more negative karma.  If we live unconsciously, then we continue to develop more negative karma, our consciousness drops instead of raises, and our energy experiences a corresponding drop.  We need energy for transformation, so it becomes more and more important to catch the negative thoughts before they manifest and generate negative karma.

G – Yes, but there is still karma in the dream.  Even though Rama could enter Nirvana, he still meditated and exercised as part of Infinity.   Subhuti does what the Buddha says, then he’s just awake in a dream and in that dream he is doing his work. 

G2 - Rama said “Line up the dots.”  You cannot go into higher states if you’re in hate and delusion. 

D – And realize that anger doesn’t need to be loaded with morality.  Just acknowledge it by naming it twice.  Anger Anger.  The fear of having anger is still in duality.  We’re trying to become desireless, which means neither attracted nor repulsed. 

G - The perfection of morality referred to in the book is the perfection of karma.  This means we all have to hone our actions so we can go as far as we can in this lifetime.  

G - The perfection of vigor is referring to “personal power”.  We already know these concepts from working with Rama, but Conze uses different language.  Look at the book as if you already understand these concepts, and you will see that this material is exactly what Rama taught us, but in different language.  Anyone who studied with Rama knows this stuff. 

M – I felt that the book was beyond my grasp, but reading it with others and having these discussions allowed me to get through it.  “I realized that I already understood some of this.  I have made my home a new haven, and I appreciate my new friends.  I am watchful of whom I allow into my life and I am more aware of how I need to work a little bit on myself everyday.  I see how important it is to protect my practice.”    

G - You should be proud that you have read it.  It even states in the book itself that people who haven’t had a lot of lives may be repulsed by reading it.

We discussed what the Buddha meant by the isolatedness of all dharmas?  (Note: little d dharmas means things or actions in the world, as opposed to big d Dharmas which is the law or right action, what Rama called “filling the perfect absence”.)  

G2 - Absolute purity? 

G - That might have gotten you by on Vulture Peak…  But, he’s insulting them.  It is related to the sorcerers explanation (from Carlos Castaneda).  Any dharma (thing) that we name isolates it.  You’re drawing a line around the chair and separating it from the rest of the universe.  As soon as you name it, you’ve isolated it.  You’re creating this separation that is isolating something from god when you name it.   

G – In Castaneda, he uses the table as a description of the tonal.  Don Juan say’s “The salt shaker could be god, as a part of the tonal.  And somehow everything else is the universe.  We separate these things and create a lot more difficulty for ourselves.  All dharmas are isolated. It is the signless or separativity. 

D – This is also the basis for identifying polarities – We live in a world of duality.  Our very words create separativity.  Stopping thought is non-duality.  It is the experience of the connectedness of everything. 

G - A bodhisattva courses (focuses) on wholesome roots (good karmas), but s/he still needs to get off the wheel.  You’re in a dream and until you perfect your karmas (line up the three dots), you’re not gonna get there.  You’d only be a saint or a streamwinner.  And door number 3 is OK.  It’s not a judgment or a problem, it’s just part of the mode of this dimension.

(Garuda could do whole exposition on these.) 

G - Own-being in the book means essence.  Basically he’s saying that nothing has its own essence – it is all nothingness.  You can’t pin down anything. 

G - Non-apprehension is when the world falls away.  It’s not that you are not aware, in a conventional sense.  Rama walks in a room and everything is light.  You know you are going into a dream, but you don’t apprehend the way, because you’re just in the light. 

D - I had a real moment of sadness reading this.  Here I am again taking the millionth step, but it is such a long process.  I have so far to go…  to live all these lives and to be stuck on the wheel and then to have to regain my knowledge every lifetime.

G - The Buddha wants us to be liberated from the wheel of birth and death.  The Blue Book is a big meal, not a snack.  It is a bit tedious.   

D - Rama spoke of “Pleasure, pain and the senses” – that reminds me a lot of the blue book.

G - Rama was grounded in emptiness. 

D - If you want to hear a lot of references to the material in the Blue Book, listen to Rama’s talk on Inaccessibility and Attachment.

G - The perfection of wisdom is the mother of the Tathagata.  The Tathagata sees all as an illusion, and yet they still live in the world.

G - Rama could explain very esoteric experiences with perfection…  He knew this material from experience, not from books.

M – I don’t want to destroy your illusion, but my book is Yellow, not Blue!

G2 – I would like to discuss the error regarding the jewel of the dharma and the jewel of the sangha, which is on pages 530 and 531. 

G2- Also, on page 415, I would like to discuss the Identity of Nirvana and Samsara.  Specifically, emptiness, the signless and the wishless.  I understand Nirvana and the wishless as being out of desire, but what is the signless?

G - Not without objective support does a deed arise.  These are the three doors of deliverance.  The universe dissolves.

G - Things have signs or ‘marks’ as Conze calls them.  The car is solid, the sun is hot.  But when you get so high that everything and it is pure light, they no longer have attributes.  It’s pure light and all symbolism goes away. 

G – Words are immediately confining.  Clear light is clear because they don’t want to give it a sign.  Clear is the closest word/label/’mark’ they can give it without creating separation/ duality.  (For those that studied with Rama, we know this energy – it is the light we were enveloped in when he meditated.)   

G - It’s interesting to see where these thoughts come from…  we have wars, which derive from mind-junk.  The Wishless means that no plans for the future are apprehended.  Rama said “Plan not to plan.”

D – A comment on ‘not without an objective source does a deed arise.’  Khempo (who met Rama and felt he was guided to help his students) often discussed the concept of Interdependent origination.  My understanding is that our reality is interdependently created through our thoughts and the mechanics of this dimension.  Without our mental engagement, it all dissolves back into the undifferentiated.

G- Yes, but Happy thoughts are still an objective. Words are counter dharma – in the company of buddhas, you are in their energy.  That’s why we meditate.  Illusions do not come into being, which are false to behold.  It is also signless.

D – There is a great zen technique.  All you do is name whatever arises, twice, and you drop it.  It takes the charge off it.  For example.  “Anger, anger.”  Anything that arises.  “Sad, sad.”  “Warm, warm.”  “Tears, tears.”  “Joy, joy.”  “Pain, pain.”  “Light, light.”  “Meow, meow.”

G2 – I can feel how that works.  Thanks.

G - Non-attachment.  I want to talk about non-attachment. 

D – I have a story about this.  I recently moved across country to take a contract, and my motivation was desire.  I thought I understood why I was coming.  When I arrived, the reasons completely changed.  I was disappointed.  I was attached to a particular outcome.  Then, two nights ago, I awoke in the middle of the night and there was a man in my room.  My immediate reaction was, “How did this guy get in here without waking the dogs?”  I then realized that I was seeing someone very important.  He was actually 3d – right there.  I stared at him for about 5 minutes and tried to engrain his image in my mind.  Slowly he faded away.

D – Years ago, during our initiation in New York, (an event where Rama went through each person in the room, touching their heart chakra and ‘reading’ their past lives to them, while setting us on the path of the Boddhisattva,) Rama told me I had had an elightened teacher in a past life, who had left a mark on my subtle body, just as Rama’s mark is on all of his students.  I always wondered who this other teacher was…  which lifetime that happened in, etc.  It all came together for me when I realized that the reason that I was brought to connect to the people on this contract is because we shared that lifetime.  So the weird thing is that it was my attachment that brought me here, but if I look at it from not being attached to the outcome, there was a whole other purpose for my coming here.  I couldn’t have seen it and had that remembrance while I was still attached to my original ideas about why I was here. 

G – You experienced the development of the 5 eyes.  This is one of the concepts discussed in Buddhism.  It is a way of seeing into other realities/ dimensions.  Rama talked and shared a lot of information on that. 

G – As far as the attachment goes, we first become unattached to base things then we go beyond that.  Keep practicing. 

6) Connections with Carlos Casteneda

G - Even the Buddha recommends that people who can’t attain (nirvana) and incarnate out of their world systems… (use Existence as their teacher in this dimension?)  The world appears to appear…If you allow the illusions to take over, we settle down in nonexistent dharmas.

G – Look at Rama:  The bodhisattva is an idealization.  He works tirelessly for the welfare of all beings.  Tirelessly.  If you knew Rama, you understand this.  You go where the company sends you.  As a Tathagata, he had the knowledge of all modes.  So he knows how all things come together/work in this dimension.  Personal enlightenment is a black belt, but Rama always said that was the beginning of the real training.  There are levels and levels of attainment beyond that. 

G – In this book, the Buddha’s disciples are in those advanced levels.  They could go into nirvakalpa Samadhi.  He’s teaching the advanced stuff.  He’s basically saying, You can tap into so much, and you have so much to learn.  If Rama wrote this book, it would be so different.  Conze makes it non-glamorous.

G – Jubilation in this book is what Rama called Ecstacy.

G - “Perfection of vigor” means you need to understand occult powers, because that’s part of the knowledge of all modes.  As far as Castaneda goes, we are trying to undevelop form, which don Juan teaches Carlos through eating peyote.  It shows him the other dimensions directly and encourages the superpowers that he eventually acquires. 

G- But even if you acquire those powers, it is a by-product of the process you’re going through.  It’s controlling them.  Surrendering yourself to the Infinite is how they are developed.  The Company gave Rama these siddha powers, and that is what he used. 

G - It takes a long time to gain enlightenment, Nirvana.

G2 – What techniques were they trying to apply?

M – Well, my teacher said they asked Rama daily, “How can I help all beings?”  I recently had an experience with a cake, where I was having a hard time with a friend who had given it to me and the book said you have to let go of hate.  So I ate it! 

G - A bodhisattva will roast in hell for all beings.  A spy will go through all these tortures to protect their country.  It takes complete resolve to not give in to hate and delusion.  “I see thousands of boddhisattvas throwing themselves into the hell realms…”  Once they attain nirvana as a streamwinner, they can choose to come back/ reincarnate.

Following are Blue Book Quotes that Garuda put together and uses on the #buddhaquotes twitter account:

He is a true seeker, holding back nothing, holding to nothing, beyond good and evil, beyond the body and beyond the mind.

To be a mother is sweet, and a father. It is sweet to live arduously and to master yourself.

Good deeds welcome you like friends -- and with such rejoicing will you pass from this life into the next.

Better than a hundred years of mischief, is one day of contemplation.

The fool who knows he is a fool is that much wiser.

Do not belittle your virtues saying, "they are nothing." A jug fills drop by drop, so the wise man becomes brimful of virtues.

You can surely not assume that the real essence of form has actually been apprehended.

The Buddha does not swerve away from emptiness. Emptiness is not apprehended through duality and there is no dharma that is not emptiness.

Since all dharmas are magical creations, each disciple, each Buddha must be a magical creation.

The monk becomes learned that anything is not suitable to settle in.

Action is what differentiates beings in terms of baseness and excellence.


Edited by: Anonymous on 2020-09-10 14:04